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United Church of Christ Congregation in Virginia has been set on fire, with anti-gay slurs spray painted on the building. The church’s general synod just recently voted to support gay marriage, and the religious far right just can’t contend with that.
The haters roll on.
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Far right burns down Church? Could you write a more inflammatory headline?
A handful of anti – gay vandals — maybe even only one — spray paint a church and set it on fire, and you condemn the whole, entire far right.
Un – fucking – believable.
And, by the way, if you are expecting the pro forma condemnation, forget it.
I take the left -wing viewL Nobody was hurt, I don’t care.
Frank,
Inflamatory headline?! The *church* is inflamed for for chrissake. It was clearly not an accident but a politically motivated act. Oliver generously supposes that those who were responsible were not moderately conservative but way out there at the end of the spectrum.
Jade,
Did you actually file that complaint against Rob?
Or were you too much of a pussy to actually follow through on your threat?
This was the act of mainstream Republicans.
There is no moderate branch of the GOP.
“generously supposes?” I don’t even suppose they vote. What do you think, they go to meetings of the Anti – gay Church Burners’ Party?
Since when does being opposed to gay marriage make you “far right”?
Burning a church down is Arson, not a campaign slogan…
Oliver I don’t see in that article that the far right burned it down.
Brandon: Did you ever enlist? Guess not.
Actually, Rob’s got enough on his plate, right now. I’m still waiting for Rob to lodge the libel suit he threatened.
So, Frank — do you *do* anything? Or do you just wait until your RSS reader delights you with another Oliver Willis post and get your nipples in a twist and set upon him with fantasies of being victimized?
I’m guessing the latter.
OK, so it isn’t the far right? Let’s look at the other likely suspects then:
- Far left and moderate left – not known for church burning or gay hating. Quite the reverse, in fact: the left supports freedom of religion and lifestyle.
- Center – not known for church burning or gay hating. Generally leans left-ward on such issues, or just ignores them.
- Moderate right (e.g. libertarians and non-social conservatives) – not generally known for church burning or gay hating. Like the center, usually just ignores the issues.
So who exactly does that leave? Process of elimination. Try it sometime.
I wouldn’t say that the far-right burned down the church persay but I would say that the far-right has created an atmosphere in America that creates this kind of hatred with all their rhetoric.
By taking such a hateful stand, cult leaders like Dobson and Falwell have demonized homosexuals and those who support equal rights in such a way that has created a dangerous climate in the US.
Dobson and the rest of the far-right are anything *but* christian.
grubi: I don’t have an RSS reader… Are you conducting an online interview? Do you have a point?
Of course, what I do is none of your business…
Just out of curiousity, if I did absolutely nothing but monitor Oliver’s posts, what would that mean to you?
rhys and Todd B: Thinking. Try it some time.
This “creating an atmosphere” stuff is baloney.
People hated and feared, and had no sympathy for gays before Dobson and Falwell came around.
The question is: Who made being gay a political issue? Who decided gays needed “rights”?
Believing that a person should “Hate the sin, love the sinner” is a Christian belief.
Hating gays, and mistreating them is a sin.
If the people on the left are so concerned about separation of Church and state, start here.
By the way, Rhys: I’m a social conservative — should I turn myself in?
People hated and feared, and had no sympathy for gays before Dobson and Falwell came around.
Frank attempts to reframe the argument. Nobody accused Robertson and Falwell of inventing hatred of gays. Instead, Robertson and Falwell nuture a hatred that is already there.
Falwell began his career as an ardent segregationist in VA; one willing to find biblical justification as to why blacks and whites shouldn’t mix. It launched his career; he knows a message of hate and fear sells far better than a love for one’s fellow man.
As for “creating an atmosphere”–it most certainly is a tactic that works. It’s the basis of every hate group.
Falwell began his career as an ardent segregationist in VA
Evidence. please
“This creating an atmosphere stuff is baloney.”
Charlie Manson didn’t actually kill anybody.
You can start with his own autobiography. Falwell admits to being a segregationist but claims he saw the error his ways in the late-1950s, according to an interview in the neo-Confederate rag, Southern Partisan. Yet , his own autobiography admits he was a staunch segregationist into the 1960’s and was speaking to anti-Civil Rights rallies.
Falwell’s big ‘talking point’ or theme was to claim biblical justification as to why Brown v. Topeka Bd of Ed. was a ’satanic plot.’
Bishop John Spong on Falwell:
Oh geez. Another item in the bag of left wing tricks. The “right has fostered this kind of environment” trope.
I heard the same bullshit after the Oklahoma City bombing.
Of course the left gets all self righteous and starts blubbering like 2 year old babies when they’re told that their defeatist attitude with regard to Iraq is going to do nothing more than demoralize the troops. It’s always nice to be a soldier in Iraq and seeing a bunch of pinheads sitting in front of a microphone telling everybody that we’re “losing.” Nobody’s allowed to say that about the lefty’s in this country.
Yet James Dobson and Jerry Falwell are to blame for a bunch criminals vandalizing and setting fire to a church.
You people are all deranged. Really.
Do you mean this Bishop John Spong?
I wouldn’t trust him as far as I could throw him, on matters theological, ecclesiastical, or clerical…
Nelson Mandels was, and is a communist. Calling him one is not a ‘crime’.
Besides, as usual, you call him an “ardent segregationist”. Now we find out that he addressed anti – civil rights rallies (whatever they are — again no evidence)
Look, Jadegold, you’re slinging so much mud around I can’t even keep up with you. What does this have to do with “The Far Right” burning down a Church?
Re Falwell:
You don’t know that. You’re talking out of your ass, parroting the dumbbell Left.
Why you don’t read what conservative gays have to say about gay activists’ stirring up anti – gay bigotry, with all their whining and moaning?
*crickets chirping in anticipation of Frank’s reply*
Sure, Frank, what you actually do is not really my concern. It’s understandable that you would want to hide who or what you really are. Being held accountable is anathema to the Right, it would seem.
My remark about checking an RSS feed hinges on this: if you have an RSS reader, it can be set up to alert you when a new post is put online. But, since you mention you don’t use an RSS reader, that means your prompt replies to Oliver’s posts are a result of your CONSTANT CHECKING. Did Der Partei give you specific Oliver Willis marching orders, or is OW your new hobby?
Which brings me back to my original question: do you actually *do* anything?
There. Did I illustrate my point for you sufficiently enough, or do you need flash cards?
Yet James Dobson and Jerry Falwell are to blame for a bunch criminals vandalizing and setting fire to a church.
No one ever said they were to blame for people vandalizing a church – they are, however, responsible for fostering and feeding on a brand of hatred and intolerence to anyone that doesn’t share their views of an ideal lifestyle.
Dobson and Falwell have latched on to this hot-button social issue and, as a result, stirred up an air of intolerancy in America.
Look at how the right has constantly demonized every single Muslim as being a terrorist – it comes from the hate-spewers like Limbaugh and Hannity constantly banging the drum for a war against Islam.
Of course the left gets all self righteous and starts blubbering like 2 year old babies when they re told that their defeatist attitude with regard to Iraq is going to do nothing more than demoralize the troops.
First of all, have you seen Iraq lately? We *are* losing. Secondly, I would think the troops would be a *lot* more demoralized when idiots like Limbaugh and Savage (Weiner) try and mock serious allegations of torture and mistreatment at Guantanamo Bay and Abu-Ghraib or not being provided the basic armour and weapons needed to get the job done by the administration or, probably the biggest reason, being LIED TO about the need to go to war in the first place!
“What? Some guys online think we might not win this war? I guess I’ll just give up and stop fighting then…”
–Fictional U.S. Serviceman,
stationed in Jay C’s imagination
I heard the same bullshit after the Oklahoma City bombing.
If you read American Terrorist, you find McVeigh admits it’s true. McVeigh says he was deeply influenced by NRA rhetoric and became convinced the US Govt was going to take his precious guns. He bombed the Federal Building in OK City in the hopes of sparking an all out war against the Govt.
Similarly, all the kooks who wind up shooting doctors or bombing clinics do so because they’re told abortion is murder and so forth.
I knew it.
I knew Frank would launch an attack on Spong as opposed to addressing the fact Falwell admits to being a segregationist in his own autobiography. And. of course, let’s all say Mandela is a commie rather than admit Falwell supported the apartheid regime in SA until even Ronnie Reagan told him to shut up and sit down.
And let’s skip over the fact Falwell started a segregated school in response to VA desegregating the public schools.
The facts are plain: Falwell’s entire career has been one selling hate and fear. He started as a segregationist, he’s moved on to attacking gays–to the point of attacking TinkyWink and blaming 9/11 on gays and feminists.
Jay:
their defeatist attitude with regard to Iraq is going to do nothing more than demoralize the troops.
Defeatist? It’s defeatist to point out that the Bush administration has bungled their end of the military deal here? It’s defeatist to point out that the Right has decided to ignore reality and turn a blind eye to the *actual* situation in Iraq? It’s defeatist to point out that the Republican-controlled Congress has failed to properly supply the troops with armor and ammo? That’s defeatist?!
You call it defeatism. Which sounds and smells, oddly enough, like bullshit. And also, how many “demoralized” troops have you met?
More straw man bullshit from the Right.
The defeatist remark also reminds me of what the Right re: this war really is:
The Black Knight.
BLACK KNIGHT: Have at you!
ARTHUR: You are indeed brave, Sir knight, but the fight is mine.
BLACK KNIGHT: Oh, had enough, eh?
ARTHUR: Look, you stupid bastard, you’ve got no arms left.
BLACK KNIGHT: Yes I have.
ARTHUR: Look!
BLACK KNIGHT: Just a flesh wound.
[Headbutts Arthur in the chest]
ARTHUR: Look, stop that.
BLACK KNIGHT: Chicken! Chicken!
ARTHUR: Look, I’ll have your leg. Right!
[whop]
[ARTHUR chops the BLACK KNIGHT's leg off]
BLACK KNIGHT: Right, I’ll do you for that!
ARTHUR: You’ll what?
BLACK KNIGHT: Come ‘ere!
ARTHUR: What are you going to do, bleed on me?
BLACK KNIGHT: I’m invincible!
ARTHUR: You’re a loony.
BLACK KNIGHT: The Black Knight always triumphs! Have at you! Come on then.
[whop]
[ARTHUR chops the BLACK KNIGHT's other leg off]
BLACK KNIGHT: All right; we’ll call it a draw.
Yes, right-wing talk show host G. Gordon Liddy advising people to shoot ATF agents did nothing to encourage a general atmosphere of right-wing hostility towards the federal government. Nosiree.
Yes, right-wing talk show host G. Gordon Liddy advising people to shoot ATF agents
Another urban legend happily parroted by Oliver.
If Jay C can’t change the subject, he’ll merely deny everything.
G. Gordon Liddy, 26 Aug 1994:
Slip of the tongue? Nope. Less than 3 weeks later on 15 Sep 1994, Liddy once again tells his audience how to deal with the ATF:
Later still, Liddy on 25 Apr 1995:
Jadegold, once again you miss the larger point. Oliver is wrong in stating that the Liddy was “advising people to shoot ATF agents.”
Liddy was merely answering callers who were asking something based on the larger question if the government tried to confiscate guns or if they, you know, started shooting your family dog, wife and young baby. IE, self defense.
There’s often a CONTEXT to statements people make, and while Liddy’s comments were certainly inflammatory (shocking for a radio talk show host), he was not saying as Oliver implied, “Hey everybody. Go out and shoot some ATF agents.”
Of course, since Oliver takes up sides with those who say “Screw em” when contractors in Iraq are murdered by terrorists, who’s he to talk?
You’re still wrong, Jay C. When Liddy made these remarks, a number of stations dropped him and his parent station was compelled to hold news conferences and perform damage control.
The context was this: a caller called in and was complaining she was worried that the Govt. might be going door-to-door, confiscating guns–violating her God-given 2A rights. There was no mention of the BATF coming in with weapons blazing.
Read Liddy’s initial statement again–he notes that if BATF agents –law enforcement agents–should come to take your firearms, you should kill them. Liddy doesn’t mention self-defense; he talks about law enforcement agents coming to “disarm” someone and that they should be resisted–by killing them.
What’s appalling is that Liddy was once an FBI and, as a lawyer, a former officer of the court was advocating murdering law enforcement agents.
Liddy was merely answering callers who were asking something based on the larger question if the government tried to confiscate guns or if they, you know, started shooting your family dog, wife and young baby. IE, self defence.
Trying to justify an act of hatred? When someone specifically says “aim for the head because they’re wearing bullet proof vests” that doesn’t really seem like innocently answering the question to me, it sounds like he is justifying the callers action, which is even worse.
The whole argument is stupid anyway, though. I mean if someone is so angry that “the government is going to take their guns away” that they threaten to shoot the federal agents then maybe they shouldn’t have guns in the first place.
Because the Religious Right Hate Tolerance
Those who preach tolerance, and respect for all become the targets of violence by the Religious Right.
Why is news from home (I grew up about 10 miles from this church) always tinged with wingnuttery or bigotry? Silly question I know, but dammit, this pisses me off.
Shocking shocking shocking. And yet in my experience, there is a sizeable group of conservative Christians who genuinely don’t see the irony and hypocrisy of their arrogant attitudes and anti-Christian actions.
This has nothing to do with the religious right.
A lot of the people here are ignorant. One bad person says he hates gays and he must be branded someone from the religous right.
What I find even more sad, is that the people on here that say that the regligous right is filled with hate actually hate religion and hate anything to do with Christianity. If you are going to say you are better than someone else, you best have the ability to prove it. Honestly, not being full of hate, but I see a lot of ignorant people and people here with a lot of hypocricy.
xdroid, you are such a troll.
First, the left doesn’t characteristically hate the church. What the “left” doesn’t like is organized religion trying to use government funded locations to preach its brand of religion. We believe in a secularist society where EVERYONE is free to practice their respective religion. However, we are more respectful of churches, such as UCC that preach an inclusive message. I guess you’ve decided to ignore the fact that this whole post was an outrage about an inclusive church being burned for its message.
Do you ever even acknowledge the religious left? Keep believing they don’t exist, it will surprise you in the end.
And as a general rule, very few people on the left hate gays, you pretty much have to cross far over the line towards the right to find that kind of fascistical thinking.
BinkyBoy, that isn’t the issue. Did you read the blog post?
Religious left? You mean the people that practice humanism/agnostics?
The left isn’t more respective of religion, that is a load of crap
and that is more trollish than I could ever post.
Everything I ever see from Oliver and his friends about religion is putting people down for it. “oh, you follow Christ, oh you must be stupid! Join the real world with real facts.”. This is not verbatim, but it’s the attitude that I find on these leftist boards.
When the left can really promote tolerance, please call me. Honestly, they are tolerant about homosexuality of course, they like that, but when it comes to Christians, it’s a different story.
Using that logic, I guess the “left” burned down Freddys Fashion Mart in Harlem, since it was a Sharpton-incited riot.
And, since none of the other candidates that shared a stage with Sharpton during the 2004 Democratic Primaries called him on it, I guess we can say that all of them support burning down white-owned business in Harlem.
Well the logic of Oliver and friends isn’t that far off.
Wouldn’t suprise me one bit.
xdroid says, “Everything I ever see from Oliver and his friends about religion is putting people down for it. oh, you follow Christ, oh you must be stupid! Join the real world with real facts. . This is not verbatim, but it s the attitude that I find on these leftist boards.”
No, that’s what you are looking to find and so see it between the lines. The members of the UCC are Christian. Please demonstrate where Oliver put them down for it.
The only thing that the Left doesn’t tolerate is people who are intolerant. I fail to see how that is a bad thing.
This whole deal is sad – but not shocking – which is unfortunate. I hope they catch those creeps and sentence them for a mightly long time.
Forgive them dear lord for they know not what they do…
“The only thing that the Left doesn t tolerate is people who are intolerant. I fail to see how that is a bad thing.”
What? Are you serious? Have you looked at this website and others like it sparky? Talk about denial.
Liberals on the left are tolerant about everything except religion. Where have you been.
No, we’re intolerant of the intolerant.
Religious whackjobs get our contempt, such as Dobson, Perkins, Falwell and all the rest of them.
People that don’t respect the teachings of Jesus, but preach to their followers messages of hatred and superiority. Anti-gay resolutions built upon the backs of intolerant messages preached from the pulpit as a “defense against marriage” as if marriage makes them superior. They behave as if they are better than everyone else, and THAT in itself is contemptable.
Once again, I reiterate the point that there are those of the left that are religious, there are those in the center that are religious. They have their churches, they have their beliefs and so do those of us that don’t believe in a creator, but instead believe in a worldbound science.
Try and force your views/beliefs/books on us and you get humiliated. Try to claim your religious version of reality is somehow better than everyone else and you’ll get beated down by satyrical comments.
There is a very large Democratic Christian base, if you are too hard-headed to see it, thats just not Oliver’s fault nor mine. Most leftist blogs that I’ve read in the past year will make fun of the Dobsons, because they are nothing but clowns trying to twist religion into their own personal campaign. Some will opine that religion itself is for the brain dead, etc. Thats called “opinion” and isn’t necessarily indicative of the general party politics.
If you look at affiliations of elected Democrats, you’ll find most attend church somewhat regularly and almost all of them are Christians.
I also believe that Democrats follow the teachings of Jesus a lot better than the right wing. Thats my opinion. Forgiveness, understanding, compassion, not wearing their religion on their sleeve but in their hearts. The Dobson’s, Falwell’s and Perkin’s of the religious right have attempted to hijack all of Christianity for themselves and their selfish pursuits. Why do Christians stand for it, idly ignoring them while the backlash from their outragiousness will only hurt the churches and pious people that attend them?
Cast out the extremists, make them feel their desolation and maybe they’ll learn a bit of the humility that Jesus spoke of.
So from the logic abounding in this thread, if some messed up kid listens to “Suicide Solution” and jumps out a window, we should charge Ozzy Osbourne with manslaughter? Am I getting this clearly? Obviously “fostering an atmosphere” makes you guilty of a crime, right? So we should prosecute Bill Clinton for “fostering an atmosphere” of sexual promiscuity and abuse in the White House, if some crackpot claims that Monica Lewinsky’s hijinks drove him to commit a rape or beating? Did I miss anything?
Really, this is the most tortured logic I think I’ve ever seen. No, I take that back. The most tortured logic I’ve ever seen is when liberals try to compare Focus on the Family to the Taliban.
And BinkyBoy, what Jesus actually said was,
“Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
“A student is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master. It is enough for the student to be like his teacher, and the servant like his master. If the head of the house has been called Beelzebub, how much more the members of his household!” (Matthew 10:21-25)
Obviously Jesus does not call His followers to violence, but he was very clear about the fact that the secular world would completely loathe the Gospel.
I’ll be laughing really hard if this is yet another hoax “hate crime” perpetrated by some self-loathing liberal who thinks he’s not getting enough attention.
Mike says, “I ll be laughing really hard if this is yet another hoax hate crime perpetrated by some self-loathing liberal who thinks he s not getting enough attention.”
Pray tell, when was the last time that ever happened? Evidence please. I don’t think I’ve ever met, nor heard of a “self-loathing liberal”. The very concept is oxymoronic: “I just can’t stand being so tolerant of others all the time – I wish I was more evil”.
“Self – loathing” and liberal go together like bread and butter. Haven’t you ever heard of liberal guilt
“Haven t you ever heard of liberal guilt”
Nope. Probably because it doesn’t exist.
The subtitle on that Web site is interesting: “Welcome to Encyclopediadramatica, the ultimate compendium of internets parody.” A parody encyclopedia is supposed to be authoritive at diagnosed supposed psychological problems of liberals?
By hey, if that site is authoritive in your eyes Frank, then I’m sure you won’t have a problem with its definition of conservative.
rhys,
http://www.marinij.com/Stories/0,1413,234~24407~2858718,00.html
http://www.azcentral.com/specials/special44/articles/1002student02.html
http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=1748
http://www.rense.com/general65/hx.htm
http://www.80s.com/Icons/Bios/tawana_brawley.html
Hope that helps.
“Hope that helps.”
Not really. None of the hoaxers were identified as liberals, or that they did it because of self-loathing. Attention-seeking perhaps. But loathing? How exactly does this prove your point?
In the UCC case, real arson occurred. How does a real crime compare to a hoax? Are you saying that the UCC attack was a hoax? What is your evidence for this? Who do you suspect, and why? Perhaps you should forward this vital evidence to the police.
Mike: You’re pretty thick.
http://areyouconservative.typepad.com/ayc/2004/11/limousine_liber.html
http://www.microsofa.net/mw/whiteliberal.htm
http://www.thenationaldebate.com/blog/archives/2005/01/liberal_guilt_a.html
http://www.alternet.org/story/10394/
http://www.worldmagblog.com/blog/archives/001104.html
http://www.spartacus.ws/000773.html
And there are many, many more…