’)Short version: In retaliation for Joe Wilson debunking the Bush administration’s war claims, an administration official outed his wife’s classified position to members of the media. Apparently said official is going to be revealed as Karl Rove, who seems to have sworn under oath that it wasn’t him. Also known as perjury.
Lawrence O’Donnell has more.
Oddly enough, repressive regimes in S. AMerica and Africa have hailed the US SUpreme COUrt’s refusal to hear the Miller Case. If the US won’t protect a free press, why should they? CHeck out Watching AMerica to see how foreigners view this welocmed repression of Government Criticism.
THe only person who should be in jail is Novak. The fact that this borderline talent has made a career of blustering and exaggerating is bad enough. THe fact that Fitzgerald has made a case out of those who repeated NOvak’s information and let Novak skate should scare even those who favor a stronger, more repressive Federal government.
It should be obvious to the most casual observer that President Bush is fully awar of what has been happening and the truth of the matter. Now the question is will he be brought into the trial. This could be the trigger needed for Impeachment. (GOOD THINGS HAPPEN!)
I wonder how this will bear on the forthcoming nomination of a candidate for the Supreme court.
Strangely, I agree with Joe Schmoe. The fact that Novak hasn’t been the one being prosecuted for both revelaing the information and not revealing the source is simply stunning.
That said, Miller should have burned her source… nothing the source did or said merits any protection on the part of the journalists involved.
I think it should have been posted under unimportant, not uncategorized.
Joe Plame betrayed his country. His wife was not, and is not a field agent, so who cares.
And yet I am mystified as to why Robert Novak isn’t in trouble. Not that I want him to be, but he ought to be.
I think it should have been posted under unimportant, not uncategorized.
Who cares what you think? You should really devote more time to your Condi fetish.
This story will be big no matter how ‘unimportant’ you think it is. I wonder how many nights you spent dreaming about blue dresses and cigars; talk about keeping things in perspective.
The outing of Plame ties back to the entire effort to “fix the facts around the policy” and drag our entire country into an illegitimate war.
If you support that, then you betrayed our country. I’m sick of you war apologists, and I can only hope this is the beginning of your comeuppance, you morally degenerate jingoist.
Desktops for everyone!!
{Click for larger versions}
Enjoy!
Curmudgeon, you have an extremely annoying habit of attributing to me things about which you know nothing. Ms. Lewinsky didn’t betray her country. and, technically. neither did Clinton. He just made a pig of himself i the White House.
I can’t even imagine how “the outing of Plame ties back to the entire effort to ‘fix the facts around the policy’. Any English speaking, intelligent, person (which apparently doesn’t include you) knows the true meaning of the word “fix” as used by the British, and knows that it has no connection to the outing of Valerie Plame. If she was outed in retaliation for the arrogant foolish behavior of her husband, then she cab go home and kick his ass.
And since you know nothing about my morals, your statement is as meaningless as it is crude and boorish.
I can only guess what you mean by jingoist, and I accpet the title of a patriot who loves his country gladly.
The pretense of high moral standing by people who ordinarily favor the legalization of gambling, drug use, prostitution and the abortion of unborn children is disgusting.
Why is Rove going to jail? Because he, um, leaked confidential information, and then lied about it. I’d love to see Novak in jail too (and Judith “rah-rah-let’s-go-to-war” Miller), but they are just pawns in the game.
If you’re busting up a Mafia crime family, you pass on the soldiers and you go for the Capo. Looks like we got us the capo. Good work.
Not to mention of our moral overlords who order the death of folks without a second thought.
There will be twists and turns to this entire matter that aren’t even imagined now. At a minimum, however, this incompetent administration will apparently be spending an awful lot of time in damage control mode as opposed to advocating on behalf of their SC nominee.
It looks as if there will be at least one perjury indictment and it could expand into a full-blown inquiry of the Iraq Group.
At the very least, AWOL George is going to have to explain why–after he told the nation that Rove, Libby, and Abrams had nothing to do with exposing Plame–it now appears Rove did. Further, AWOL George will likely be compelled to make some personnel changes or give the impression he condoned this activity.
What does ‘fix’ mean as used by the british? It sounds like youre just spouting bits and pieces of republican talking points, thats whats disgusting.
I am confused. Telling the the truth is treason? THe president lied, Cheney lied, WOlfowitz lied, Perle lied, etc…the only one who told the truth was Joe WIlson, so they tried to get his wife, what?, killed, outed, assasinated?
SOme of these people must be listening to Rush as well as taking his drug of choice. OTherwise, how could any reasonable man, and by that I am applying Jefferson’s standard, not ROve’s, believe that preventing this disaster of monstrous consequences that is the Iraq
Rove lied under oath? So Republicans are going to come down on him since they hate when people lie under oath right? Right??? Ooops, I forgot.. it’s only bad when other people do it, not Republicans.
Hey, maybe Rove can share a prison cell with Delay.. one can only hope, huh? (Of course, in a perfect world the entire Bush crime family would be rotting in a cell for their war crimes but I’ll settle for one step at a time).
Although one has to wonder that, if it is indeed Rove, who then told him? I can’t imagine Rove would be privy to that kind of information at will (although there is no telling what these bunches of crooks do behind closed door).
Oh and Frank; just because you think outing CIA agents and national security failures are ok, doesn’t mean the rest of us do.
I am confused. Telling the the truth is treason? THe president lied, Cheney lied, WOlfowitz lied, Perle lied, etc…the only one who told the truth was Joe WIlson, so they tried to get his wife, what?, killed, outed, assasinated?
How could any reasonable man, and by that I am applying Jefferson’s standard, not ROve’s, believe that preventing this disaster of monstrous consequences is treason?
Even many Republicans now believe the war was not justified and that ‘intelligence’ was fixed. The Base of the right cannot accept they were wrong because God told them this was the right thing to do. Maybe God outed Mrs. Wilson.
From Editor & Publisher
Famous liberal saying, “first we hang ‘em, then we try ‘em”
Frank: Did you expect Rove’s lawyer to roll over and admit to everything?
Personally, I can’t believe Rove is stupid enough to call up about a dozen journalists and expose a CIA agent and then lie about it in front of a GJ. Rove’s MO is to have surrogates do such work so he can have plausible deniability.
What is very plain, however, is that this matter has expanded well beyond the Plame outting and into the activities of Iraq Group. There will be indictments but that’s just the tip of what is a very large iceberg.
IMHO, this is wishful thinking…
According to the” Intelligence Identities Protection Act of 1982 leaking the name of an undercover agent is also a federal crime, punishable by up to 10 years in prison, under certain circumstances… ”
Vanity Fair 2004
Outting a CIA operative who specializes in WMD trafficking during a war whose rationale was the the threat of WMD trafficking….? Seems like person or persons in Bush HQ are guilty of felony treason.
I was wrong and I apologize. It probably wasnt Karl ROve who leaked the information. ROve was, at the time, a minor player in the administration policy and was still rounding up Christian believers to stay at the BUsh side. Instead, there is reason to believe it was Dick CHeney. It is CHeney of all the people in the Bush WHite House that has the least control over his temper. I can picture him blustering and ranting to his frined, Novak. WHether it was Cheney or ROve, it makes no difference, in the end. With an honest CONgress, this situation would be worthy of a congressional investigation. FOrtunately, The TOme DELay standards have made this less likely.
Also, name calling is so petty. The ‘we’ll hang’em right after the fair trial’ was the policy of Texan Judge ROy BEan. And he was not a liberal. In fact, it appears that anything Frank D. dislikes has to be liberal. SO tell me Frank, was Ghengis Khan L or C?, Was Augustus L or C? HOw about Atilla the Hun? History shows that conservatism is the basis of all repressive governments because conservatism, according to “Observations on the French Revolution” by Edmund BUrke defines conservatism as the conserving of power by the few. Until the birth of America, there was only conservative governments…tyrants, theorcrats, autocrats…..Stalin was not a liberal, since he was the single holder of power. Hitler was not a liberal since he was the sole source of power, Czar Nicholas was a conservative because he was an autocrat. You cannot point to any man or woman in hisory who was a tyrant who could be consider a liberal democrat. THe means by which you achieve power has little to do with the way you exert it. COmmunism motivated the people of RUssia to overthrow the Czar, but in the end, Stalin was a conservative tyrant like the Czar. Read some history, you ignorant piece of limbaugh.
Oh man- Rove’s lawyer says he’s innocent? Well then, whats all this fuss about? His word is good enough for me!
I can t even imagine how the outing of Plame ties back to the entire effort to fix the facts around the policy .
That not really suprising since, as has been proven time and again, your side suffers from an seriously epidemic lack of imagination.
Plame’s outing was a message to any agent that thought about telling the truth about falsified “WMD-friendly” intel.
Her husband did, so his wife was punished. It’s no coincidence that she just happened to work the WMD desk at the CIA. Her career was destroyed, her life put in danger, her network absolved…all for the ‘chilling effect’ it would create in the agency. The Bushites were free to go on ‘fixing’ the intel
knows the true meaning of the word fix as used by the British
ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Is that anything the meaning of what the word “is” is?
Remember, even though your head is comfortably warm, buried so deeply in that sand…you’ll need to come up for air, from time to time.
The pretense of high moral standing by people who ordinarily favor the legalization of gambling, drug use, prostitution and the abortion of unborn children is disgusting.
I agree, this is why I’m disgusted with Rush Limbaugh, Jeff Gannon and the whole Republican lot.
As much as I would revel in the schadenfruede of watching Rove pay the price for selling his soul, it’s a distraction that we Democrats would do well to ignore. We have a philosophy (sensibly regulated marketplaces, bringing collective resources to bear on large problems, public service as a public trust instead of a corporate piggy bank) we can sell on its own merits. The Plame game is a sideshow, and while it’s useful for exposing what a bunch of incompetent assclowns are running the government now it’s got nothing to do with us or our effectiveness as a party.
We can’t win elections with “Vote for us – we’re not as bad as they are”. We win elections when we show that we can do more for voters than Republicans can. We win elections when we show voters that we’re more like them than the other guys. We win elections when we pay attention to what voters really want and don’t get caught up in (and identified with) only interest group politics. The smartest political commercial I have ever seen was for a local County Commission race in Hillsborough/Tampa – the candidate looked at the camera and said “My only special interest is YOU.”
The only thing this can do for us is give a narrative – the Republicans are too caught up in their own power games and too beholden to the religious fanaticism of their followers to be trusted with the country’s money, security, and future. And since they started out pre-corrupted, it took them much less time to quit caring what the voters think than it took the Democrats. We have our faults, but we at least have the decency to act ashamed when we get caught with our hand in the till. The Republicans seem to treat the public purse as a private slush fund as a matter of political philosophy.
birds of a feather….
or should i say forgs of a skin
scroll down to 4th row
Anyone who thinks that this will lead to impeachment needs a reality check.
First of all, politics is a profession that lives and dies on “plausable deniability”. Bush will simply state that he didn’t know Plame was going to be exposed. And if there is one thing the neocons do, it is march in locked step – no one will expose Bush.
Second. The ultra right wing of the GOP owns 2 out of 3 branches of the government, and will soon own all three. Even if Rove and Cheney were to be found guilty, there would be no impeachment – and even if there were an impeachment, a not guilty plea would be the result. Remember, the neocons don’t have principles – they have issues. They don’t believe that Ollie North was a traitor, because the end justified the means. They will feel that way about Rove.
Third. If Rove were to be found guilty of anything he would be pardoned. His accusers would be attacked as “Enemies of freedom” and he would go back to work as chief political advisor (and lose his assistant chief of staff title). Rove has proven that in today’s political climate, you need to have a political stategist who is a sociopath.
Lastly, I doubt this will get much exposure. It hasn’t made the front page of the Post yet. The American public doesn’t have the attention span to follow this story. Everyone is content to watch the “news stories” of missing teenagers and kooky movie stars and think that they are well informed.
Why do you want to talk about interpretations of conservatism when youre supposed to be defending your buddy karl?
Joe Schmoe: Your interpretation of history, liberalism and conservatism is the most original I’ve ever read. It certainly doesn’t resemble any liberal ot conservative interpretation of the subjects I’ve ever heard of. You absolutely must tell me where it comes from, or direct me to the primary sources you consulted to construct the theory yourself. Please
da lurker: very clever — really
Because unlike my close minded friends on the Left, I remain intellectually curious even at the ripe old age of 58.
As for “defending” Mr. Rove, I’m not doing that, at all. He has a lawyer. I’m merely pointing out that he is far from a “perp walk”.
‘Conservative’ and ‘intellectually curious’?
Uh huh.
Watch the timeline on this folks; it’s not so much important as to what was said as when it was said.
The Repugs are already beginning to mount a ‘how come Clinton got away with perjury?’ non-defense defense.
Jadegold: Show me
Frank D.
Shut off your radio and pick up a book. My theory is not original, it comes from the same books read by Jefferson, Washington, Franklin. Read Edmund Burke…he talks about the 3 estates for essential government…the king, the church and titled classes…Conservatism is not about caution in government, it is about power. DId you ever read any political philosophy from the 17th and 18th Centuries?….Hobbes is one guy you should read….
America is the first nation that practiced the philosphy that the power to govern eminates from the governed. We give the government the right to rule. …Every other, I repeat…every other form of government has been based upon Divine RIght, ie power derived from God, or on conquest…William the COnquerer said…I now own England and all of its people and now I will parcel out land and power as I see fit…
Conservatism is a bankrupt policy that places the average person like a cow in a herd.
Liberal Democracy..and I am not talking about legislation…liberal democracy is the theory that power is derived from the governed. Read the Declaration of Independence, the COnstitution, the BIll of RIghts..it is essential that you understand the process of governing especially on the day we celebrate the uniqueness of our charter. Conservatives are traitors to the form of democracy we practice.
Do you know who America’s first conservatives were? THey were the Tories, those who fought or supported the British against the Revolution.
SOme Patriots thought they should be killed or expelled but others said we need input from every sector of our society to be truly democratic…even from the traitorous Conservatives.
More fuel for the fire:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/theblog/archive/lawrence-odonnell/update-on-rove_3584.html
Joe: Thanks. Now I’m sure you have no idea what conservatism is. I thought not. You probably are confusing conservative with reactionaryStart here =>
By the way, I almost never listen to the radio. I wonder what made you think I did, hmm?
Dave M: That link is in Oliver’s opening salvo
Frank_D
I don’t see it. It’s new – from today.
You’re right. It’s an update
One thing O’Donnell is “wrong” about: When he says, “If what I have reported is not true… Rove could prove that instantly…”, he is setting an obvious trap for Rove. Either open up yourself for a media ‘feeding frenzy’ or we can assume you are guilty. O’Donnell is a life – long Democrat who may hate Rove more than he hates Bush, and he really hates Bush.
Thanks to Bill “All he did was lie about a blowjob” Clinton, Rove’s “offense”, if, indeed, he committed one, has been trivialized. Thanks to WJC, you can practically commit a crime in front of the jury and get away with it.
So, worst possible outcome (and I mean worst): Rove resigns, remains as power behind the throne until ‘08, and then gets a think tank job making a quarter of a million a year, speaking fees to match. Talk about “falling up”!
Frank_D, even if you were right it’s about time Rove got a taste of his own medicine. Not that he’d learn a lesson from it, but the rest of the GOP might quit being afraid of him and those single-issue lemmings he’s signed up.
Let’s all look forward to President Bush having to eat his words of October 7, 2003 regarding the Plame outing and his White House team:
“I don’t know if we’re going to find out the senior administration official. Now, this is a large administration, and there’s a lot of senior officials.”
For more of Bush’s lack of concern over the breaking scandal, see:
“A Nod and a Wink: Bush on the Plame Scandal”
Once more, Frank is wrong. Rove could easily discredit O’Donnell in a heartbeat if O’Donnell was lying. But there are only two possible reasons why Rove doesn’t: 1. Rove is a really nice guy and doesn’t want to sully O’Donnell’s reputation; or 2. O’Donnell is telling the truth.
As I noted earlier, the Repugs have already begun to hop aboard the ‘Bill Clinton did it, too” excuse train. Frank is already in the Club Car drinking the koolaid. This is indicative of just how deep the GOP considers the mess they’re in.
Apparently, Frank believes the American public is going to equate lying about an affair with, say, lying about exposing an American undercover agent as an act of political revenge.
No, Frank, they’re not. Here’s why: Probably somewhere around half the nation (maybe more)–Dems and Repugs and whatevers–have committed infidelity. Or they know someone–a friend, relative, business associate, clergyman, etc–who has. They may or may not approve but the vast majority don’t consider it a crime or something worthy of a $100M investigation.
OTOH, exposing a covert CIA agent? When there’s a war on? No, Frank, I’m very, very confident the American public isn’t going to look favorably on that.
As for the worst case; you might be partly right. The GOP has an extensive record of hiring convicted felons.
Ollie
Lay off that Blue Mountain sherm for a minute and give us some Beltway Insider Buzz ( no pun intended ). This is being discussed with some intensity while your puffing away.
The more I read ( I’m assuming its true ) about how well the intelligence asset (Brewster Jennings, company that Plame worked for) was positioned and how valuable the info we harvested from it was…. I am just in awe at how f*cked you would have to be to be OUT this entire organization. It is absolutely f*cking minboggling.
I can’t believe, even of BUSHCO, that you could be so STUPID as to destroy an organization of this sophistication and penetration. Plame was just one wheel in a very large cog. And now that whole intelligence machine has vaporized!! Instantaneously.
And for what? This is what I don’t get. Petty revenge can’t be the reason. My respect for BUSHCO is as low as it gets. But revenge seems too simplistic even for them ( career insiders of this level should know better, ego then? I’m not buying it ) .
I have a feeling this is not about 1 undercover CIA operative.
Does anyone get the vibe that this is VERY, VERY BIG?
“Thanks to Bill All he did was lie about a blowjob Clinton, Rove s offense , if, indeed, he committed one, has been trivialized.”
Only in the minds of conservatives who give “lying about a blowjob” more import than outing an undercover agent working to protect our nation against the proliferation of Weapons of Mass Destruction. (Plame worked the WMD desk at the CIA)
The rest of us have a little more perspective.
This is not about me or the “Repugs”; it’s about Valerie Plame.
Was she a “covert agent” in a legal sense?
Was she ‘outed’ in the usual meaning of the word?
The question to people with “a little more perspective” is not “Did Karl Rove do it?” or “Why did Karl Rove do it?”, the question is “Who did it?” Period.
Here’s another great one for you people who think all I do is listen to the radio:
http://www.archives.gov/national_archives_experience/charters/charters.html
For those who think “Independence” means less government, and not just watching A Capitol Fourth,
Happy Independence Day!
“Not to mention of our moral overlords who order the death of folks without a second thought.” – Oliver Willis
“Not to mention of our moral overlords who order the death of folks without a
second thought” – Bizarro
Who said it?
The only thing mystifying in Frank’s babbling is this:
Joe Plame betrayed his country
LOL. Yeah, and how was it that he betrayed his country?
the question is Who did it? Period.
We know Rove is cooked. His lawyer recently entoned that Heir Karl didn’t “knowingly” exspose Plame covert identity. To me, that pretty much implicates him at a very serious level. “Knowingly” or not…it looks like Rove’s goose is cooked.
We know Rove has used Novak to smear people in past, in fact, “Karl Rove was fired from the 1992 re-election campaign of Bush Sr. for allegedly leaking a negative story about Bush loyalist/fundraiser Robert Mosbacher to Novak.” [Source]
Rove hinted in his interview with the grand jury, that 6-7 others were involved in the smear campaign against Wilson (via Plame). Given Rove didn’t have high enough clearance to know Plame’s status could be leveraged against the ambassador, someone else must have passed the info along to him.
So, given that it seems Rove is now “fair game” for the grand jury, I’d say the real question is, “Who *else* did it?” How high does this go? Bolton? Cheney? ……Bush?
I will be getting a much better sleep this week, methinks, unlike some of those in the capitol.
Btw, forgive misspellings…I’m drunk from the 4th. Celebrating this country’s coming liberation from the tyranny of those criminals currently running Washington.
It was a beautiful day. The coming week looks to be even better.
That should be reportedly fired… And I haven’t had a drink in 19 years!
From your “source”
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4190.htm
“Novak, in an interview, said his sources had come to him with the information. ‘I didn’t dig it out, it was given to me,’ he said. ‘They thought it was significant, they gave me the name and I used it.’”
Kos talks about this, too.