’)Durbin apologizes. The noise machine claims another victim.
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When can we expect Bush and Cheney to apologize for exposing detainees to torture? I thought so.
“His voice quaking and tears welling in his eyes”
Oh gag me. Not only did he wimp out but he grovelled. Much worse that clarifying his points without apologizing and pointing out the hypocrisy of the vitriol from the right. No balls.
“I m sure all the shouters on the right will let up on him now.”
Yes, just as Lott apologized and then all the criticism stopped. Right?
The main difference is that Republicans officially punished Lott. The big Democrats haven’t been heard from on Durbin.
Dugger
I’m sure all the shouters on the right will let up on him now.
Haw.
You’ll never hear Bush or Cheney say: “All of us, I believe, who have had the opportunity to serve in public life from time to time have said things that we deeply regret.”
JESUS CHRIST! Does the WH have naked pictures of these friggin’ jellyfish Senators or WHAT?!! Did they threaten his family? Remarkable.
Why the hell would he apologize for being right???
“The big Democrats haven t been heard from on Durbin.”
The sad thing is that other Democrats were banging on him in addition to the normal suspects. Are these the very same Democrats banging on Howard Dean for his comments? Do we have a “wimp squad” within the Dems that routinely breaks with the party unlike the well trained Republicans?
Circle the wagons, Oliver. Never admit defeat. Never admit wrong. A Democrat must never back down. Your party, right or wrong!
The zealotry around here is beginning to approach nigh religious proportions.
Durbin was wrong, and he finally had the sand to admit it. Good for him. Would only that his fellow travellers had the same decency.
“The zealotry around here is beginning to approach nigh religious proportions.”
It should not be so actually. Unfortunately the GOP presents itself as a monolithic voting block and, unlike Democrats, does not have a reputation of “eating their own.” In such a climate, it is presently only the Dems who break with themselves and therefore appear weak and feckless. DC is presently not a place to be nice.
Absent the present malignant need for both parties to act as a block, it would be best were each congressperson free to vote what he/she felt were in the best interests of their constituents.
What? Republicans don’t “purge their party of the insufficiently ideological”?
That will be cold comfort to Mssrs. Jeffords and Voinovich.
You are seriously blowin’ my mind….
mrC
Republicans “purge their party of the insufficiently ideological”, eh?
Someone forgot to tell Guliani. And McCain. And Arnold.
Now that Durbin has acknowledged he was wrong, what action will the Democratic party take re Durbin? After all, the Republicans took Lotts position away? Are the Democrats as good as the Republicans? We’ll see.
Dugger
SaveFarris: Republicans haven’t purged McCain, Graham, or Lugar, either, but those guys always wind up voting with the administration anyway, so they’re pretty effectively neutered. If there were actually independendent Republicans, they would indeed be purged.
SaveFarris: McCain has a black baby. McCain sold out his fellow soldiers as a POW.
Remember those things? They tried to destroy McCain, thats your wonderful party of thugs and pissants.
But to Dugger and the rest of you knuckledragging apes, the email account from an FBI agent that Durbin read from did read as though Gitmo was a gulag. Chained in the fetal position for 24 hours? Shitting and pissing on oneself? Do you think this is going to give us good intelligence?
Screw you right wingers. You people are disgusting. And screw Durbin for rolling over like a chastized puppy.
>The kind of verbal diarrhea that spewed out of Durbin s >mouth ?is the sort of trash that s been pushing voters like >me ?away from the Democrats
Those comments make some good points – Durbin really worded things poorly – and playing the Nazi (etc) card is always problematic
The problem with that comment – is it seems the Democrats (and anything left of moderate Repubilcans) are held to such a double standard. Finding similar commentary from the right (Santorum made a Nazi analogy during the “Nuclear Option” debate) is as hard as finding a Starbucks in a major metropolitan area – yet I never seem to hear ANYONE say “Comments like Santorums pushes voters away from Republicans”
I mean is comparing torture by Americans to regimes that in fact tortured even comparable to DeLay and Frist calling for (or excusing) the murder of Federal Judges?
Binky,
Thinking beats ranting any day. Try to sort this out by scale or magnitude.
How do you or the uncorroborated FBI agent (report) know he was chained in a fetal positon 24 hours. Because it also said he pulled out his own hair. The two seem incompatible to me. Probalyl he was chained and was lying in a fetal position becasue thats how he wanted to lie. As far as his messing himself, we see no place whether he was allowed to go potty or not. And as we well know, Al Qaeda has a training manual that says make it look like you’re being tortured. What better way to look tortured than voluntarily crapping on yourself (after all, he also pulled out his own hair). Are you aware of how many died in Nazi camps and at the Gulags. How they died? How many Pol Pot killed. Ever see the Killing Fields.
Go back to the relatives of those Jews who died in the concentration camps or of the Russians starved to death in the gulags and say:
“Yeah, our military is just as bad. Sure the prisoners are putting on weight, but we make them listen to loud music and turn off the air conditioning. ”
They might well look at you like you’re an idiot.
Dugger
Durbin’s mistake was invoking the “Nazi” label. NO ONE SHOULD BE COMPARED WITH THE NAZIS, EXCEPT NAZIS.
Fucking idiot has played right into the Repukelicans snakepit.
as much as the prisoner treatment at gitmo deserved to be criticized, it completely unacceptable for an elected official to publically make nazi references. durbin absolutely needed to apologize and hopefully no democrat will ever again make such a statement.
Briffy, did you read the whole comment? Did you listen to it?
He said that the account he read may have sounded like something out of Nazi Germany. He didn’t say our troops were acting like Nazi’s.
And Dugger, there were accounts from 4 or 5 difference incidences in the report. You are trying to merge them all into one.
Zappa, excellent post. By continuing to say “hey, at least we arn’t as bad as X” is just a pathetic way to claim higher moral ground.
Zappa,
Again. I’ve seen nothing that was done at Gitmo that is that bad. Loud music, turn off the a/c. Is it really proper to use a Nazi analogy for that. And I disagree that scale is not important. The commies are worse (having murdered more) than the nazis and the Nazis are worse than Pol pot. Pol Pot is worse than Franco. Nothing has any meaning if you can’t distinguish between murdering 20,000,000 peasants and making somebody listebn to loud music.
Dugger
So Dugger – are you sticking with the slogan – “Hey – we are not as bad as the Nazi’s or Pol Pot” – “It’s a matter of scale, we havn’t even come close to the magnitude of the atrocities of those other Evil men”.
Torture one person is bad.
Torture one million people is also bad.
That is the point. Why are you trivializing and rationalizing what was done in Gitmo and Abhu Grahib? You are 100% correct that we have not even come close to the levels of human rights violations – but there are no shades of grey when you start to violate those rights. That is what is happening.
It is like you don’t want to see that we are making a huge mistake and will question and deny it until it is too late.
Dugger wrote:
So it’s not enough to shout down Durbin? Now you’re going to suggest that the FBI report was wrong and that the detainees were faking?
When the Nazis were on the rise, good Germans knew not to notice their crimes.
I’m sure that Republicans purge their party, too. But, since I’m not a Republican and you’re not Republicans, it’s hardly germane to the issue except as a diverting tactic.
I know I’m supposed to Christ-like and gentle and forgiving and all, but when I see bullsh-t like the following, spewed by Dugger:
Again. I ve seen nothing that was done at Gitmo that is that bad.
What a piece of shit you are. Have you packed a bag to check yourself in yet? And don’t give me any panty-waste horse putty about you not being a terrorist. So far, dozens of people who did nothing wrong, and weren’t terrorists have been released from Camp X-Ray without so much as an apology. Coming from many of these former ‘detainees’ are stories of mistreatment, torture, and, yes, fucking murder. How many more innocent people are rotting down there? Oops, forgot: can’t tell, because there is no due process that will let us find out.
While we’re on the subject, I want to hear one more right-wing ass-sucker tell me about Hitler’s and Stalin’s body counts. How many innocent people have to get murdered before you stains will be impressed? Durbin, before he handed over his balls, was dead on. His analogy to Nazis and the Khmer Rouge was appropriate, not because we’ve exactly duplicated their feats of extermination, but because those regimes set historical examples that our shining beacon of democracy is supposed to avoid at any cost.
And just to give you c-nts a bonus that you don’t deserve, I’ll give you a bit of history about Guantanamo Bay, which shouldn’t have U.S. boots on it in the first place.
Dugger,
You are aware, of course, that temperatures in Cuba frequently get up into the 100’s, right?
But I guess that’s not too “bad,” huh?
Dugger – the point is that we are better than ‘not as bad’.
We should always set the example for the world to follow. Are you saying this is a fine example?
And your trivializing the situation is wrong.
Do you have corroberated evidence that they were only forced to listen to loud music? Do you have duplicates of form CF-966?
Only one FBI agent made the connection about Arabs taking flight classes, since there really was no corroberation, its a dang good thing we didn’t listen to him, huh?
Why not use this to get more evidence? Do you think maybe agents and personnel are either guilty of it or are afraid to report it? Do you really think that anyone given a tour of Gitmo is going to see the REAL Gitmo?
Give it up Dugger, you’re making some pretty weak arguments
Oh, Quaker you’ve done it now- you’ve compared Dugger to a good German during the reich!!!!!
Don’t you know that Dugger supports a regime that only killed 100,000 people, and not 10 million? Don’t you know that you can’t criticize a lockstep Republican until Bush murders 10 million also? Why are you trivializing the Holocaust?
Quaker,
You may not like it, but it is still an uncorroborated report. My arguments assume, that despite that inconvenience, it is true. Who has shouted Durbin down. He’s been criticized almost exclusively (daley, maybe a few others) by the right and service people. And h*ll yes, I’m suggesting that detainees have lied, do lie and will lie again. I ’speck you are smart enough to not believe everything they say also. Right? Please say yes.
Alex,
“I want to hear one more right-wing *ss-sucker tell me about Hitler s and Stalin s body counts.”
Since you asked so nicely:
Hitler murdered 6,000,000; Stalin 10,000,000 and Mao 20,000,000.
Now, clean the froth and spittle from your mouth and get a grip. There have been NO documented cases of murder from indepenedent authorities at GITMO. None.
So lets check up on the final score.
Durbins Dictators: 36,000,000
US at Gitmo: 0.
Back to you Sen Durbin.
Dugger
Zappa,
But don’t you think we have been much, much, much, much, much, much better than Pol Pot etc. I will point out again. These are not legal comabtants. They are gaining weight. No documented deaths. Charges: no A/C (but note there has been AC turned on to be subsequently turned off), loud music, chained.
Dugger
For some statistics on who has died, and their causes of death, in US capivity — Abu Ghraib and Gitmo, see RedState.org
Your rage is, and I understate it, singularly inappropriate.
Offer all the diversions you wish, Dugger. The subject is still, and always has been, what are our standards? Not Nazis’, not Pol Pot’s, not al Qaeda’s.
The FBI report describes treatment of detainees under our control. Does the described behavior meet with your approval?
One more your forgot/skipped.
If the accusations are true – do you feel that this treatment is acceptable my American standards.
Hint:
There is a right and a wrong answer.
In his original comment, Durbin said that if you didn’t know the FBI report was describing the conduct of Americans, you’d have a hard time believing it.
Dugger proves him correct.
The more important question is: Did the described behavior take place?
Another question: How often does behavior like this take place? What happens to the people who do this sort of thing?
Let’s stop arguing abou whether Durbin is a jerk — he is.
Let’s stop arguing about whether prisoners at Abu Ghraob, or Gitmo are being treated worse than prisoners in a Gulag, or a Stalag, or a Concentration camp, or a Cambodian re – education camp. They aren’t
Two seriously important questions:
Are the the abuses being investigated?
Is there anything “fishy” about the investigation?
I don’t think Durbin is a jerk – I’m an Illinois voter – and I like him. I agree with his thesis – granted he worded it poorly.
However we are in great agreement that what matters is how often behavior takes place. Once im my opinion is too many.
And what does happen to the people who do this sort of thing?
Look at Abu Ghraib. If you had stripe(s) on your arm you’re punished (or a female with a star on your lapel). You take all the blame. If you have a piece of metal on your lapel (other than a star) – nothing happens. If you’re male – and have a star(s) on your lapel – you get promoted…
They created Gitmo for one basic reason: house people they don’t like and keep them from public view and oversight. The Red Cross wasn’t and possibly still isn’t let into Gitmo, why? These are human beings that may or may not be guilty, but unless there is a charge, guilty doesn’t mean squat. Are they guilty of having a rival clan arrest them and turn them into the Americans for money or are they guilty of resisting US soldiers? Why hold them off our shores? Why not build it here in the US where they don’t LOOK guilty? Maybe because they ARE guilty? The Administration put that prison off our shores for a reason, and that is because they arn’t held to US laws and they want to believe they arn’t even held to international laws.
Bullshit. The laws are there for reasons, there should be no reason to hide these people. We have people in our state and federal prison systems that are far more dangerous and they are still given rights.
This administration, through its shady deals and attempts to hide from oversight are the ones that have invited critical commentary and harsh review. They should stop whining and actually pony up some answers.
Quaker said,
“The subject is still, and always has been, what are our standards? Not Nazis , not Pol Pot s, not al Qaeda s.”
Yes and I would like to apologize for dragging Nazis, commies, Polish Potters etc into it in the first place.
Dugger or Durbin
I think everything worked out for the best….at least now we shouldn’t here any more GOP Nazi remarks….right? Couldn’t be caught stooping down to Durbin’s level anymore?…. right? So it is all over and we can get back to the utter incompetence of the current administration. Great!!
Shorter Dugger.
I still wont answer your question.
“Abusing” prisoners, if that’s what happening, is wrong…
The problem is not whether prisoners ’should’ be abused — we know that’s wrong.
The question is: Does the treatment of prisoners at Gitmo, or Abu Ghraib come even close to a reasonable person’s definition of abuse.
Keep in mind that these prisoners were captured wearing no uniforms of any Army, and need not be treated according to the Geneva Conventions.
They should be treated like Military prisoners – not the softest of treatment. but better than lots of prison systems around the world.
Stress positions. Heat/cold exposure. Long periods of shackling without access to basic hygiene. Prolonged exposure to loud noise.
I dunno, Frank. Does this treatment come close to your definition of abuse?
Here’s part 2 of the question, Frank.
If the treatment described isn’t low enough to be called abuse, does it measure up to the standards we expect of our military?
I think a fair standard for what constitutes abuse should be if the actions are comparable, or worse, than what American service men and women endure in SERE school, POW training, etc …
How’s this Quaker? Is it tougher than US Army Basic Training? Fraternity hazing? Merit badge qualification? JFK’s physical fitness exam? A game of “Simon Says”? A vigorous “Alley Cat” dance? Stop me when you think it qualifies as non – abusive…
Zappa,
Wasn’t ignoring your question. If you are asking me personally, I would have to know more about the actual treatment – the big picture. I gather the FBI agent had a “snapshot” view of this guy. If he is treated that way all the time and if others are treated that way all the time, then I think it probably needs to be scaled back. It doesn’t rise though, to my minds eye-view of torture. And I doubt the treatment is that way across the board – too many questions begged (like the A/C was turned off – meaning it must have at other points been turned on, gaining weight – etc.).
Dugger
That wasn’t an answer, Frank.
If the treatment described isn t low enough to be called abuse, does it measure up to the standards we expect of our military?
If it isn’t ‘abuse’ by a “a reasonable person’s standards”, then it’s not abuse by military standards.
I assume that being that being a suspected terrorist in military custody will not entitle me to the treatment being meted out at Gitmo or Abu Ghraib.
The word from most of the terrorists is that they’re being treated just fine.
Do you have a source, or have you been in direct communication?
I read newspapers and magazines, besides reading ‘blogs. I’m not going to list them all for you. Go to the library.
There have been numerous reports of prisoners not wanting to be released, stories of how they are treated, what they eat, etc.
You think Durbin stumbled upon some secret knowledge?
Go ahead and say, “No, I don’t have a source.” I won’t laugh. I promise.
You could read this.
Yes, they sound like happy campers to me.
Sort of. He was reading from an FBI email acquired through a FOIA request. But I didn’t need to tell you. You already knew that.
Didn’t you?